The article has been out for less than 4 hours now and I have almost 20 emails of people that would disagree with you (just wish they'd post below).

At 10-years old? Really? Comparing it to advanced classes in school is absolutely ridiculous. You are telling the kid that didn’t make the team that he is inferior!

AND MOST OF THE TIME A GROUP OF PARENTS ARE MAKING THIS DECISION MIKE, NOT A GROUP OF EDICATORS.

These teams are rarely the cream of the crop. You need to think it through using every scenario.

Just because you get cut does not mean a coach is calling you inferior. Furthermore not every kid out there will interpret that message as such. I was cut by a number of teams but i had the support at home to understand that could be used as a motivating factor...perhaps i was not inferior. My basic skills were not at the same level as others. I took it upon myself to improve. Become smarter, faster, and better...wait i forgot if I was talking about sports or classes. That comparrisson is not that far fetched. I developed my reading skills just as i did my basketball and baseball skills as a kid. Why punish those who are at a more advanced level? Why not use these types of scenarios of getting cut or placed on the B squad as a motivating tool, life lesson whatever you want to call it. Life is not about everyone having the same skill set or level. I do not agree with you calling someone's opinion ridiculous. especially since it could potentially be valid. I am fine with your opinion on elite teams etc. however just because you choose to dislike them and what you feel they represent should not result in the disbandment of travel teams. I have learned many a life lesson through sports. Rec ball and travel alike. The sledgehammer toting travel coach is a different issue in itself.

Umm, these are 9 and 10-year-olds wanting to HAVE FUN! Are you kidding me? No ability at 9 often turns into a sport's stud at 10. You need to understand what many of these other parents are talking about. The best kids don't always play on these teams because of POLITICS. It's all based on an unfair system to begin with.

I see it all of the time Ed.

For more on the "politics" of the issue, and "organizational leadership issues at the bottom" see an article(s) on Wilton Patch about a parent suing a girls' Lacrosse league.

Not being a parent of sports kids, or traveling in those "social" circles of Wilton, my comment comes from an outsider. Yet I can't help wondering if some of these parents of the kids in the "elite" or "travel" teams are not still in the 'clique' stage, or else trying to live out their dreams through their children.

One is also reminded of the extreme cases of fathers who commit violent acts upon parents of other kids/coaches who don't play their child often enough; or the cheerleader moms who target other girls for violence, or on the internet.

Well said, Jan.

Jan - I want you on my team!

Excellent response Jan. I couldn't agree more!

"Pele didn't even have shoes."

GREAT COMMENT. I'M THINKING HE WASN'T ON THE PREMIER TEAM. HOW IN THE WORLD WAS HE EVER DISCOVERED?

I'm choosing you too, Smallbiz. Did your parents really name you that? :)

That's an interesting though and solution Steve.

Your other points are spot on! I hope that Mike and ILOVEVERNON read this far down.

@Steve F and Ron, Ron, you have redeemed yourself wholeheartedly in my eyes. more than redeemed. Steve F has a fabulous idea. But no one will second my opinion. or third your opinion, Ron. Regionalize it. Hello. Hallelujah. Steve, has anyone ever told you "you're my hero". As for ILOVEVERNON, is he a pawn Ron? Sent her to keep the convo going. Mr. Vernon...are you out there and can you respond please?

Ask him what?

Rob - Great post!!!

Great points! I also coach those levels and played on a "travel" team back in the day. It was definitely different - "travel" was to towns that didn't have enough kids to have a full rec league, to add to their schedule. We all played rec ball as well - and were spread out on those teams, for balance. And, miraculously, most of us played college ball - including 2 olympic athletes.

Good example although at a much higher level. It would be really great if we knew that he'd played on his towns rec teams and was passed up for the travel team 5 years in a row.

And I love people that have the guts to use their first and last name AND a picture! And I think it's planet EGO.

You're wrong in your statement that "It is only in adolescence that a child has the physical and mental ability to begin to fully engage in a sport." If you witnessed the thousands of players we've seen play in the tournaments we've attended over the last 6 years, you'd learn otherwise.

If you are correct, then a team of ten-year-olds should be able to beat a team of sixteen-year olds. In other words, you are saying a ten-year-old has the mental maturity and physical ability to compete with a sixteen-year-old. This defies scientific evidence and reason. And by the way what kind of parent would allow a ten-year-old playing on a travel team to practice for hours every day? Answer: Not a very good one.

My child would be mortified if I put her name out there. Although she excels at her sport, she doesn't brag because she doesn't have to.

Haha! Didn't we decide a few months ago to get rid of those?

I'm screaming my friend!

Martin, is this coming from a parent of a child who did not make an Elite team

Martin, is this coming from a parent of a child who did not make an Elite team

Mike - Do you understand some of the reasons why some kids don't make the Elite teams? It's not always skill.

Mike - Sports at that age are supposed to be FUN. And again I go back to the people making these decisions: Coach Mom or Dad who often has other criteria in mind when choosing their team. I don't see the comparison with school as a valid one.

Soooooo Using that Logic, and carrying it forward a bit
Let's just say...........you took a "gifted", "Talented", player to register for an "elite team", but did not happen to have the cash to pay for it, would the child still be able to participate on the "Elite Team".

In esseance in school, gifted academically might not relate to "elite sports" where the engagement in that sport is directly related to the ability to pay?

The telling sign is that usually, most of these "Elite" programs are associated with a store front or business account thereby telling me that someone is Profiting by this participation.

Well, Michael, then I suppose it would be fair to let a team of ten-year-olds play against a team of sixteen-year-olds? Young children can learn the basics of a sport, but they do not have the mental and physical maturity of an adolescent. And it is mental and physical maturity, as well as coordination, etc. that make a successful athlete. Mental maturity means having the confidence to make mistakes and the perserverance to keep practicing until you get it right.

Maria- He's not saying 10 year olds should play against 16 year olds. He's saying that the gifted players should play at their level so they can be given the opportunities that they have earned.

Mine started at 9 years old and still plays as a junior in high school...there's your first one.

Get serious Ron, "interesting"? Lets do baseball 6-10 year old's. 7 kids is the answer! Start with 8 little league teams, 15 on each, 120 kids. 90% of these six year old's want to play Professional Baseball for a living, the other 10% want to be a doctor, police or fireman, astronaut, etc. One thing is clear at this age, they all love the game. Then they start to grow, physically, mentally and emotionally. Some over the years leading up to high school start to develop other interests, and leave the game, some still enjoy it and move on to Babe Ruth 13 & 14, down to about 50. Out of these 50, 30 decide to tryout for the high school teams. 15 for the freshman squad, 2 @ JV and 1 straight to Varsity. That's 18, and 12 get "cut". During the next 4 years many of these players will compete for 15-16 spots on the Varsity team. Again, a majority of these remaining students will move on to other aspects of life, another sport, work, school club, studies, etc. So, how many of these six year old's, that we started with are left? An average of 7, or less than 10%!

What do you find interesting about this? What would you do, tell all the kids, don't worry there will always be a place for you on a baseball team somewhere, even if you not good enough! Or how about the kids who found something else they liked better? Please.

What you should find interesting is, if asked, how many would still like to be a Baseball player? Of the starting 120 what would that percentage be?

If those travel kids were dispersed in the regular rec league it would even the playing field immediately. Each team would have its "superstars" and if the league is smart, it forces a new lineup to play every five minutes. Matchups become important. It's like the kid with the two older brothers - he becomes better just by playing in the backyard with them. This leaves no child behind to be labeled as a lifetime rec player. You match the "superstars" up against each other on the court. There are not THAT many kids that cannot be neutralized by another kid of equal skill. Again - read my lips everyone... 9-10-11 year old kids for goodness sakes. Let them play against each other.

Ron- If the above average kids all played rec, they wouldn't be evenly dispersed. They'd change teams to be with their friends. Then, it wouldn't be fun for the not as good players because they would get beat again and again. There would be a few super teams and every other team wouldn't have a win. Also, there would be a few not as good kids on the winning teams who would never get playing time. That is NOT fun for anyone.

Will - we need to change our way of thinking. And we need to demand that equal teams be formed and equal playing time enforced. We mustn't divide these kids at such a young age because a group of dads decide that some are better than others during a particular season. It takes an effort on all our parts to bring it back to where it benefits the group as a whole. Studies have shown that this is the direction that we need to go in.

Having coaches without a stake in whose children or parents they need to appease is a whole other story. You can see by re-reading the article that I'm mostly referring to Rec leagues coached by parents. I hope your yogurt didn't end up on your shirt as mine did, I hate when that happens. I'll amend my sentence by saying there are no brats in AAU soccer. And I'm on the side of the children. Your situation is a 2%er and I hope your daughter finds much success! I would also be extremely proud of her.

I did refer to your article multiple times, but these posts don't allow over 1,000 strokes. She started w/Parks and Rec and travel and AAU so that she could play in the spring; all her choice and it doesn't make sense that parents force their children into sports as there are many other extra-curriculars to choose from. There's more than 2% of us. We've had good experiences with coaches and parents in all her leagues and organizations. I've guided her to respect her coaches and teachers because she's going to have to respect a boss. We've kept our noses clean and gotten along with everyone around us probably because we concentrated on the sport and not any drama. There also aren't any brats in BASKETBALL, at least not in our circle.

Thank you Susan - and guess what? Maybe if they'd been rejected by the ELITE teams at an early age they would have lost interest thinking they were not good enough. Or they would have been labeled as so many NON-ELITE players are and not fairly judged at the HS level. But they came in FRESH - and obviously impressed the coaches. I wonder how many of the ELITERS did not make the team.

My daughter played all those outdoor games and, at the same time, played organized sports because rather than sit in front of a television, she preferred the exercise. I consider my daughter "better" off for that. She didn't "sacrifice" her childhood because she did what she loved to do and I whole-heartedly supported her along the way.

I totally agree on "participation trophies." Playing to win with all levels of players can still be fun for all - even in rec.I totally object to the parents on the other end of the spectrum who send their kids to play "just to have fun" - with no regard for learning the sport, team play, skills, commitment, etc. That's just as wrong as the uber-competitive parents pushing their kids. Reporting scores as ties to the paper is wrong - there are winners and losers in life, and you're all correct. We should all learn to win and lose GRACEFULLY. I don't agree that the rec programs should be your "farm system," which is actually creating a class system, discriminating against the kids who don't have the money or the parental support to cart them all over creation. Playing with better players will raise the weaker players, and help the whole team. As for kids knowing more about reality, one of my teams wanted to change our cheer after the game. Sure, I said, to what? "1-2-3-4, we don't care about the score!" No! you can't say that. That was a great teaching moment. We play to win, but not at all cost. It's fun to be out there, getting exercise with our friends and learning teamwork. But we always play to win.

Kevin, I couldn't disagree more. The real world we are talking about is CHILDHOOD. The other real world can wait. They are kids. Sports are suppose to be for fun - and learning - and getting better - and meeting new friends. Your cliques need to be busted to pieces. Give them a damn ball and some coaching and let them play. Your theory is destroying youth sports.

And are we really going to compare 5th grade sports to the business world? And you've lost me on the babying of our kids by letting them play as a group. The less talented kids will become better by playing with more talented kids and the more talemted kids will rise to the top. Simple as that. Oh, and the 1 or 2 super-human kids (if there are any) can surely find a regional team to shine on.

The fact of the matter is all those things you are looking for (fun, learning, getting better) are still achieved with travel teams, aau teams and premier teams and the like. My daughter is 12 years old and loves soccer, she plays for both her town travel team as well as a Premier team. She loves playing for the town team has these are the girls she has been playing with for years, go to school together etc and they have a very solid team. She is a very unselfish player and does look to pass first, get others involve etc and I think that has a very positive impact on the team and its results and growth over the years. The team has gotten better, individual girls have worked harder to get better but this didn't provide my daughter with the ability to get better. Her coach (who had no kids on the team and no agenda) recommended that we look into a premier team as well so we did. We are a middle class family living paycheck to paycheck like most folks these days, with 3 kids who all have their activities and interests. I drive a '96 Blazer and my wife a '07 Odyssey, so elitist we are NOT! But we made the decision to shell out the money for premier soccer becuase it gives my daughter a chance to get better at the sport she loves and get the challenge of playing at a higher lever. AND she is having fun, making new friendships, learning to get better, realizing the benefits of hard work and dedication all through playing the sport she loves!!

oh Kevin, you have a lot to learn. "more advanced players". At what age are they more advanced? Kindergarten? Listen to yourself. There are raw athletes who don't stand a chance b/c "everyone is an athlete". If sports were like singing--have you ever covered your ears when someone who can't carry a tune tries to sing--then more raw athletes would stand a chance of playing travel and getting developed. What's the issue: The issue is determining who should be developed. Start young. Like they do in China and Japan. Are these kids elite? No. They just were born with raw talent. Some are born to sing, some are born to play sports, some are born to solve mathematical equations, some are born to be leaders, some are born to cook, some are born to use their hands in a trade, some are born to read, etc, etc, etc. Start young and determine where their talent lies. The ones who are selected to elite teams are NOT always the right ones. Really the ones selected just happen to have Coach Dads. Disagree? I'm open.

Kevin meet Karen. She nailed it. I couldn't have said it better.

Karen- They become advanced by succeeding and beating others. It doesn't matter what age you are. Being better at something makes you advanced in that area.

Jim - I'm scared too!!!

Your perspective frightens me because parents who are involved in their children's sports in a positive manner means everything to them and if you want real evidence of this, come to a game and you'll hear the cheers and witness the positive reinforcements to our players. We're proud that our kids aren't roaming the streets. Rather, they're having fun in the gyms, fields, courts, tracks, and pools.

Believe me, I roam sidelines a lot. And that is the problem: It means EVERYTHING to these parents. There is not a place on this planet where parents can make more of a fool of themselves than on the sidelines watching their children. That's the reason for so many rules in place in many areas directed at keeping parents in line. It's awful. Sometimes my only job on a particular Sunday would be patroling the sidelines making sure the parents acted like good little boys and girls. Sad.

Really, so a team of ten-year-olds can beat a team of sixteen-year-olds? Michael, I return my participation medal to you. I hope some of you parents are listening.

Maria, it doesn't seem as though your comments are coming from experience because 10 year olds don't play 16 year olds in parks and rec, travel or AAU organizations. They do, however, play up a grade or two and yes, I have witnessed the younger more talented athletes beat the older and less talented ones.

If you read my comment I was comparing the abilities of a ten-year-old with a sixteen-year-old. There may not be much difference in mental maturity and physical ability between 10 and 11 year olds or 14 and 15 year olds, so I would not be surprised if a team of 14 year olds could beat a team of 15 year olds. My original comment was that it is unreasonable for anyone to expect a 10-year old to have the ability of a 16 year old, no matter how talented the 10 year old is. You are not an athlete at 10, but you can be an athlete at 15 or 16.

Maria- From the comments I've read, you seem to be fixated on 10 year olds beating 16 year olds. Has that ever been a situation? Has anyone ever asked for 10 year olds to play 16 year olds. They might ask to play 11 year olds but no more then that. You are exaggerating to a ridiculous point.

Thanks ILOVEVERNON! Something I feel strongly about. My daughter is an exceptional soccer player so we have encouraged her to try out for premier teams/travel etc. My son loves baseball and is decent player but not at a level where he should be trying to an aau team, so he plays the local little league and works hard and has much fun. Every kid is different and to not treat them as such is a shame. If every parent worried about their own kids and did what is best for them without concerning themselves with what others are doing we would all be better served.

We've never witnessed POLITICS in neither our town's parks and rec and travel programs, nor our AAU organizations.

Wow, what town do you live in? A town without politics.

Rob - what does that mean? It's the second time I've seen it in this post.

Scott - it's just not as simple as that. Take a look here at the many problems that we are exposing. In a perfect world - maybe.

Finally, some great advice for anyone out there who just doesn't get it. Thank you.

Great example.

Maria, you could not be more wrong.

The majority of the money spent on elite teams go for insurance for the kids, uniforms for the kids and travel expenses. All kids are invited to try out and if there are financial needs from families, many programs will grant scholarships.

Scott S, you are 100% correct

It's nice to hear that some programs provide scholarships, but not all. And how much in scholarships--for one child, perhaps two. What about the other qualified children? And do the scholarships cover all expenses?

Who determines who has ability and who has not? The parents of some of the very children who are "trying out"? I hope not, because that would be gaming the system. And how much time do these parents spend encouraging all children in their community to try out? Isn't it really a closed little world?

Maria - you a lot closer to the truth than Mike about this subject. They usually are not better teams and money keeps many out of the mix. And many of the best players are sick of the politics of TRAVEL teams so they don't even bother with them.

Maria, you don't sound like you have experienced organized sports because your comments don't make sense. Children without funds are not barred from participating. Tournaments, insurance, trainers and weekend college and high school gymnasiums cost money like everything else in life. In the alternative, a player's fee can be waived if they can play the sport, but can't afford it. I know three AAU organizations off the top of my head that have waived player fees and I'm not advertising for those organizations. You seem to have very negative opinions of children in sports. Be happy for them because they're happy. Don't condemn the players and their parents for making wise choices in their lives.

I am not condemning anyone. I am asking if the process is fair to all children. I am not familiar with the AAU organization. I do think sports programs are a good thing for most children, but want them to be fair. As long as scholarships cover all expenses for all qualified children and the decision as to who is qualified is not made by the parents involved, I don't have a real problem with any sports program. You do not say if all expenses are covered by scholarships or waivers nor do you say who decides who is on the team? And do these programs include inner city children or just suburban children?

Player fees can be anywhere from $200.00 to $1,500.00 depending on sanctioned tournaments and how many will be played. An entire player fee could be waived for a good player. If that player cannot afford travel and room expenses, they simply double up with another player for the weekend. Coaches determine who has ability to play, not the parents. I've recommended AAU and premier sports to a few kids throughout the years who I've seen play the game with the endurance it takes to play at a more challenging and competitive level. It's not a "closed little world", however, an open large terrene for any player with the endurance and dedication it takes to play. From reading a lot of these comments, if they do come from experience, how unfortunate to have had such negative experiences in something so great.

"An entire player fee could be waived for a good player." Who determines who is a good player? It sounds to me like very few players have their fees waived. Most families in modest circumstances could never pay those kinds of fees. How many kids in these tournaments are from the inner city?

Maria- you are spot on with much of this. Your concerns about inner city kids, money, who decides who plays, etc are aspects that many overlook and don't add into the equation,

Ron, clearly you have started a debate on something you don't much experience with. AAU and Premier teams hold open tryouts to form their teams, kids from various towns and up bringings are eligible to tryout. The programs have coaches who are an expert in his or her sport who then select the team. If a kid is talented enough to make the team almost all organizations will work with a family to make the financials work. My daughter started at 4 with rec soccer and used to have to be told to "stop scoring", so she went out for travel and became a defender and loved it, but she again wasn't being challenged as much so went out for a premier team where each and every practice and game she has to work hard to compete, making her a better player. Yes, they are can still be good players in a rec program and if they choose to stay there good for them that is their choice...as it is for those of us with kids who have chosen to try travel or aau/premier.

Whoa- hold on Kevin! This is not strictly about AAU. I am mostly talking about REC programs and TOWN programs. Do not tell me that I do not know what I am talking about.

Andrew - again, a simple answer to a complicated question. Unfortunately it does not stop with your theory.

My perspective on these comments is that parents and others are spreading their ideologies and false pretenses to their children and not providing them with these life chances they are so fortunate to have available to them. To hold a child back is so unfortunate.

OMG! It is not like that at all! You have just reinforced my argument. Thanks!

ILOVEVERNON - Do you have a real name?

"You get what you pay for."
Wow. So money buys you a better youth sports experience. That is fantastic!

Both professional and college coaches will play their strongest players. All strong players have off games. They're not bionic. Less effective players should never play in travel or AAU as parks and rec keeps everyone and plays everyone. Players are cut in all other levels for a reason. It's dangerous for weak players to be chosen to compete at levels outside their ability and I, for one, am all for safety in sports.

Ugh. Comparing young kids to college athletes is crazy. Cutting kids at such a young age is as ridiculous as it gets.

Michael - that comment doesn't belong in a discussion such as this one. Nice to be able to hide behind a first name when making foolish remarks.

And, to teach them to try their hardest at a game or on a test. And, as long as they have practiced and studied, it's okay to lose or fail because they tried their hardest to succeed. Also, to have compassion for the underprivileged, handicapped and elderly. And, recognition and commendation for their accomplishments. These not only teach children compassion but also raise their self-esteem in their developmental years. Sports play a huge part in a child's life. Children learn values on their own being part of a team. Another realm of competition is academics. Kids enter spelling, math, science, and many other academic competitions. I support all positive extracurriculars in a child's life.

Enlighten the writer that AAU basketball allows a player to continue playing in the spring which is the reason it begins after winter sports and that not all parents are dumb enough to believe a coach that makes the Division 1 college promise because one that does this isn't a good coach as there are no promises in life. And, another redundant comment about children not having fun playing sports which doesn't make sense. My child wouldn't be playing if she wasn't having fun.

The writer has a name.

MIchael...

See your point. But compare apples to apples. Organized choir and band as you state, start off as school driven, taxpayer paid opportunities. That's a big well with a significant "natural drop-out" rate. Organized sports always starts off with a $$$$ value tied to it. So conversely, that's a much smaller well with a mush lower drop-out rate. At least until you hit the 11 or 12 YO range when competition tightens up quite a bit.

So although I see where you're coming from, just need to make sure we're using examples that are truly 1:1 in all interpretations. Many of the comparative views I am seeing in this thread are in fact....not 1:1.

Sorry...one more thing. Choir and band are groupings of individual talents. You can play flute alone. You can sing alone. You cannot play baseball or soccer...alone. We are talking team efforts here.

So another apple to orange argument.

Gary,

I disagree, yes it is an opportunity but a child has to have the desire to do this and has to put in the time and effort to get better (similar to a sport). How you make All-State is similar to what we are talking here, you sign up for a tryout, you attend the try out and preform in front of judges, if you are lucky enough to get selected you are now part of a TEAM. I did not speak to doing it alone, it is a group effort

Michael,

Fair points. At what age do you partake in All-state band and choir?

Gary, children who compete in the performing arts have various out-of-pocket expenses that don't come out of the taxpayers' pockets.

Gary, it's all relative. You stated: "Choir and band are groupings of individual talents." Think about what you just stated and you'll realize that teams are a grouping of individual talents as well. Baseball, soccer, and all other players have practice drills which they do alone, much like a flute player. When flutists enter competitions, they're competing against someone else like an athlete does. Also, swimmers compete against their own time.

Grotuva...

Yes, there are indeed expenses. As there is with everything. Baseball glove. Hockey pads. And tuba rental's ain't cheap. But the opportunity to get there is FREE. Typically school sponsored and organized all the way through high school. If you want something beyond that, it will either be done as an individual with a high cost teacher or you're playing for a symphony or regional orchestra (of which there are not many around...so truly and literally....elite).

Grotuva...

I will come back to the original point. We are talking team sports. Not individual vs. individual. The two are very different. A flutist can practice AND compete solo. A soccer player cannot. S/he requires a team of other players to compete with after they have done their individual drills. There is not relativity here. They are two completely different things altogether and always have been. Which is why you don't see any tennis or gold parents on this thread.

Do you see the distinction I am trying to make? (speaking with a soft voice...(-:)

Have you read all my responses to your comments???

Michael- would you like some homework on the subject from some of the "experts" to keep you busy?

As far as Maria- sometimes the opinions of those on the outside of a situation are the most insightful.

My comments deal with fairness. I am familiar with sports and know many good kids who play sports and how hard they work, but I am not an expert on elite and travel teams. I also look at language. When a parent wants his child to belong to an "elite" team that raises all sorts of questions in my mind. Just using the word "elite" is saying something about the parent. The kids on the elite team didn't pick that word, it was the parents.

It does appear that these elite and travel teams and tournaments involve a great deal of money. And no one has answered my question about who decides who is on the team.

I started to write the exact same thing, but deleted it. Thanks for your input, Michael.

Maria, the author of this thread used the word "elite". In six years of competitive play, us parents never used that word.

There is nothing more annoying than an outsider's perspective of a topic, which they know nothing about.

"There is nothing more annoying than an outsider's perspective of a topic, which they know nothing about." Yes, I am an outsider just like the kids who don't make the elite team or premiere team or whatever you want to call it. (Many of those commenting on this thread have used "elite" and "premiere" not just the author of the article.) But being an outsider is not so bad, something I hope the kids who don't make the elite teams will come to appreciate as they grow older. Sometimes being on the outside is the most authentic place to be. And I think if you asked those kids on the elite teams how they felt about the kids who didn't make the team, most would show a degree of understanding and sensitivity that many of their parents lack.

Michael, it was to ^Maria^ that you should earlier have asked your question: "are you really part of the Obama administration and instead of a redistribution of wealth, you are now focusing on a redistribution of sports talent?"

She is definitely for "redistribution of wealth" and "social justice" rather than "equal justice under the law," or even "survival of the fittest"--to bring the analogy a little closer to the topic at hand. ;-)

Nothing wrong with paying coaches. They have to make a living. But how do the parents afford all this? Doesn't it get expensive?

I've already told her that the coaches choose the players, not the parents. We've had volunteer coaching with the incentive that their rooms are paid for when we travel, which is a fair trade-off for a good coach.

Right.

Thank you for the information about your program, but other elite/premier programs may handle things differently. Right? One more question. What is the percentage of scholarship kids to the other kids on the team? How many scholarships does your program award every year? The more scholarships, the higher the costs for the paying parents.

I've got nothing for you Andrew. Sorry.

My child played all outdoor childhood games and, at the same time, played organized sports dealing with it appropriately because rather than sit in front of a television, she preferred the exercise. She didn't sacrifice her childhood because she did what she loved to do and I whole-heartedly supported her along the way.
What is it with the comments about parents making their kids play sports and wanting the labels. You guys are so wrong, it's getting ridiculous and comical at this point. My daughter at 9 years old and at 13 and 14 years old wasn't in a high school mentality when she played sports. She was at a 9 year old and 13 and 14 year old mentality playing sports for fun and happened to be good at it.

Grotuva...

Not speaking about all of course. There are some (I'd throw myself in this hat) who clearly manage their children's expectations regarding their natural talents and progress them along appropriately, with confidence, responsibility and in knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Sounds like you have taken that path as well. And you should be applauded for it. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you. Most these days are not. Ron's point in the article is that a fair majority are turning your good approach into bad and this is becoming an epidemic.

Hate the idea of dividing and dividing and dividing our kids because we don't agree. It makes the problem even worse. And how do you expose that a coach takes his buddy's less talented kid over your kid? And using the phrase "grand conspiracy" to a parent who has been through this is condescending and patronizing at its worst. It happens a lot Andrew.

Ron, because my opinion is different than yours, lets not make it personal in the fact I need an expert. I clicked on your name and saw a picture of your son in his football uniform. I can see he has a large frame and appears to have a better than average skill set, by the fact he is wearing an All-Star shirt.

What would you say to your son if there was an Elite football program in the state and he wanted to play on it ????

Not making it personal. Sorry if it sounded like that. Sometimes my humor and sarcasm share the same sentence.

Michael - from ages 6-12, I'd be against it. In eighth grade- a year before HS... I'd have to put more thought into it. I know that playing in a town league that does not cut players has given him the skills to compete at the HS level.

The book I menntion is very good reading though. I wish I had known of it years ago.

I attended a lecture by Bob Bigelow at Avon High School in November. Very informative.

Here is my patch article report on it.

http://avon.patch.com/articles/ex-celtic-player-bob-bigelow-talks-youth-sports

I think Bigelow's point is both a good one, and fully grounded in the science of physical and mental development.

Yes read Steve's article please. I wish I had gone to the lecture. Actually I wish most of you had gone.

This is actually pretty funny.

I am going to state what I stated above. We need to stay away from apples to oranges counters. Your example (although pretty darn funny) is based on an individual to individual perspective. Not a "team" perspective, which is of course, what this is all about.

No one will ever question an elite tennis players rise among the ranks at an early age. Same for golf, swimming, etc. All individual sports.

We are talking about team sport dynamics in this thread.
Not individual sport dynamics. And there is no connection between the two.

Again, I see where you're going with this...but have a hard time lining it up the same way. I think it's just the example you are using Michael.

With Choir and Band...everyone needs to sound "the same." The goal is harmony. Literally. If someone is off key, the whole thing is blown. The goal with those types of ventures is truly to keep everyone at the same level. Equality at the expense of talent is the # goal.

Team sports due to their physical natures don't work that way. Body types are different. Attitudes are different. Parents have a stronger voice (no yelling at players in the auditorium). Often resulting in a mixture of talented and less talented players which we all know is common.

You see where I am going with this?

My daughter was nine years old and in fourth grade when she started AAU basketball. A few years later, while at a shooting clinic, she was shooting 75% at the foul line.

Gary, on a team everyone has to gel and play well as there is no "I" in team. If our shooters are off, the game is lost. Body types are different and that's why there are different positions to play. Attitudes are no different than those of talented kids in music. Both athletes' and musicians' goals are to play their best. I've been a team parent for years and haven't yelled at the kids. However, I have encouraged them with applause as I did at the musical concerts I attended when my daughter was younger.

Gary - You are making a lot of sense. Wow and you are using your real name and not hiding like many others. Thank you for bringing common sense to the discussion. I nominate you as the Chairman of our new coalition to save youth sports!!!

We are not talking about leagues that only have one team in town and must travel to play other teams. It sounds like you are talking about leagues that do not cut players.

Where do the sour grapes come in?

Amen Grandma :) I smell a lot of jealously in this thread. Thanks for corroborating.

I HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY ABOUT YOUR COMMENT BUT NO TIME TO DO IT. SO MANY POINTS THAT ARE IRRELEVANT. BUT IF YOU GET THREE DADS COACHING A REC TRAVEL TEAM - THEY HAVE THEIR OWN THREE KIDS PLUS AT LEAST ONE FRIEND PER KID. ARE THEY ALL WORTHY? ARE THEY ALL NICE KIDS? NO SOCCERPARENT- THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS.

Why all the yellin'?

Yup so let's divide them by talent at 8 and 9. Just horrible and sad. Sure wish you had a real name. Easy to hide behind a fake one.

Ron- Why is it sad to divide kids? By doing that every kid can get better and learn to enjoy the sport more.

I did better in college too because I wanted to learn. In high school, I just wanted to have fun. The brains were there, but the effort was not.

The point of my story is that I was just as good a student in high school as I was my freshman year at college. But my teachers in high school assumed I was a B-minus student and I got B-minus grades. My teachers in college didn't give a flying fig who my parents were, or what kind of clothes I wore, or whether I was pretty or even whether I was an outsider or an insider. I earned the As, so I deserved the As. I must say it was a liberating experience.

Thank you, Ron, for putting this story out there. This is the most I've ever commented on a blog. Stressful, yes, but fulfilling at the same time so long as people read my posts and learned something from them. I may want to become a blogger myself :)

And thank you as well. Blog away. It's very therapeutic.

Skiing WITH my kids vs watching them on the sidelines : )

Beth - so you have read his book. I'm still reading it. I love his ideas. I waited to buy it until I put most of my own ideas and believes out there so as not to be influenced by others. And now that I see that there are others of the same opinion - I don't mind referring to them. You would be great on this panel.

I went to his forum at west woods a few years back, fantastic ! A great philosophy !

Amen Nancy. I'd like to hear more.

To throw yourself into a shark tank like this - yes. Some of you act as if I'm the first person to ever suggest this. Some of you refuse to look at both sides. Some of you do not play fair. Some of you must be angry about other things going on in your lives. There are entire books written on the subject. Some of the remarks on here comparing this idea to politics and how a child will make the transition to the job market are plain dumb. So yes - ILOVEVERNON, there is.

Thanks Jack.

Hey Jack "R", you have to have a real name to play with Ron!!!

Ruth, dear, I could not have been disappointed because I never even knew I was an A student until I went to college. I did not rise above anything. I was always an A student. That's what I learned. Why is it so difficult for some people to recognize the possibility that it may be the institution, even an elite sports program, that is flawed, and not the student?

Wow Ruth. Thanks for helping me prove my point. Yes so much more is offered to them to excel and succeed. Sure would be nice if the less talented kids were offered that. I bet they'd like the extra help too.

Also, sorry about the all caps earlier. I didn't realize on my phone that is was in all caps until after it was posted. Wasn't yelling!

Apparently, soccerparent doesn't understand how much commitment and drive it takes for a young person to excel at any interest, not just sports. Whether it's music, astronomy, robotics, or academics, the students pursuing these interests also work hard to reach a "higher level". And when it comes to academics, I do understand the commitment and drive it takes to succeed academically, because I have been there and I know many students who have done the same, so my comments are relevant.

And it is true that some children and teenagers are not treated fairly, but that is the fault of adults, who should know and do better. Perhaps, we should not let adults off the hook so easily, soccerparent?

You are so right. And that's where some of the anger and confusion by some of the responders comes in. I should have been more specific. Yes I'm anti-travel team but having neutral coaches choosing the talent rather than parents of players takes many of the negative issues out of the mix.

Maria - we think a lot alike. You bring pieces to this puzzle that many parents from the burbs never think of and quite frankly don't seem to care about. Yes some of it may seem irrelevant to the topic by the whole point of my column was to try and find the best landscape for youth sports as a whole. What best serves the majority of the population. My goodness there are so many more factors involved in why I suggested this. I beg everyone to read the book that I mention above as well as others on the subject. Maria I'd like you to email me so that we can talk some more. I love your persistence.

Ok, Maria, children are off limits for "survival of the fittest." Mea Culpa.

Do you agree with this from one of your "progressive" heroes, Fabian socialist George Bernard Shaw?

“I think it would be a good idea to make everybody come before a properly appointed board …..say every 5 or 7 years, and be asked 'Sir or madame, will you be kind enough to justify your existence. If you do not produce as much as your consume, or perhaps a little more, then clearly we cannot use the organization of our society for the purpose of keeping you alive, because your life does not benefit us and it can’t be very much use to yourself.'” - George Bernard Shaw

@ Robert B. and Tricia G. - I'd appreciate if you'd both conduct your personal war against each other in private and not on my thread. Thank you.

Lol. Thanks for that one. It seems as though many don't realize what their little angels do among their peer groups. It's just as I wrote in the article. It often divides these kids and gives one group a reason to taunt another. But of course some of you would say that they might as well learn it now so they are prepared for it when they reach the job market as adults.

You said, "Rec is worse competition and some kids want to commit themselves more than others do."

So what about the kids good enough to make travel team that don't? Just forget about them?

It took 199 posts to get to the best one.

I would love to have you as a part of my new parent's group. Email me please.

VERY well put. NOT pushing your kid like a would-be pro is NOT the same thing as 'trophies for everything.' The microscopic number with real talent will find the path to varsity, college and pro play. There's nothing to be gained from pushing younger kids so hard. Nothing.

Ron, the entire structure of Patch (as with most other news/opinion blogs) makes it almost impossible to stay on topic. With no way to thread responses or create subtopics, most articles with any reader interest quickly become ever-extending wailing walls. There's a point at which both authors and focused commentors just need to walk away and look to the next comment stream. Although it needs to be used judiciously, closing further comments at an appropriate time can be useful to preserve the essential discussion.

For all the things that do seem to get the attention of Patch moderators, I wish they'd get more responsive to thread hijacking - starting with posts that take essentially non-political discussions and kick them sideways into boilerplate anti- rants. Delete 'em.

Michelle....

Beautifully put with an accurate portrayal of the problem.

Ron...we have another committee candidate me thinks.

(-:

One only has to read the studies that have been done (some have been mentioned in the comment section above). IN THE LONG RUN nobody wins – not your “superstar” child not the child that does not find his or her “superstardom” until a few years later, and certainly not the child that is an average player but dreams like a “superstar”.

It’s all like a big swimming pool. Some kids may start out a few lengths ahead of the field. Some of the others catch up – maybe even pass them. Some stay towards the back – struggling but trying like hell because maybe they can catch up if they try hard enough. A small few are way behind – MAYBE they will be dropped – or maybe not – it’s still early. A few are way out in front – for now. MAYBE they will keep their lead – maybe not – it’s still early.

Kevin L. states, “The problem with today's society is we have adopted this "everybody gets a participation trophy, yea" mentality. That isn't the real world! There should be an outlet for the more advanced players and those who don't make those teams can participate in a rec program and work on their skills to improve...that can be the lesson taught to the kids, keep working hard to get better.”

OK… so let’s assume that his theory works. But wait… UT OH! Now we have another parent that decides to take the “best” kids. And look at what he has to say…
Andrew Ziemba thinks, “Travel sports vs regular rec sports are NIGHT AND DAY difference. In Rec leagues, the kids can't dribble, can’t kick, can't throw, can't hit, and can't catch. NOBODY is making fun of them or bringing them down. I'm not telling them to stop playing or give up on their dreams. What I am saying is... don't force kids who can do all of those things very well to struggle in a team and massacre everyone else there...”
Don’t you all get it? Kids are being left behind and “labeled” as below average while others are given a fast track and labeled as being better. And who is making these decisions? That guy? Me? You?

And when the last kid in the swimming pool starts to lap the kids in front of him it’s too late in many a coach’s eye. He’s been labeled (at 9-years-old) as rec. He’s not part of the travel/elite circle. And if you don’t think it’s a hard group to bust – you’ve had your head in a musty batting bag for too long.
So again… before you accuse me of HOLDING your little “superstar” back, read the studies that have been published. Do a little research and you just might discover that these “teams” that many of you are so proud to be a part of are not only ruining the landscape of youth sports as a whole, but could also be blowing you a smokescreen that could disappear quicker than a spring snowstorm. (That was one heck of a run-on sentence.)

That's it from me on this subject in this thread. On Friday I'm back to writing dumb little FEEL GOOD STORIES that nobody else cares about.

Ron, scribble on the wall above your computer, "Gosh, I wonder what THIS button does?"... :)

I'm glad you posted that, Beth. I got the same link in an email from my son's premier soccer coach yesterday and was going to send it along to Ron!

But everyone knows that if you don't get into the right pre-preschool play group, you'll never get into Yale. :D

Ron Goralski
3:26 pm on Thursday, February 23, 2012
C'mon Chris - So let's say super stud moves to town. He's going to get a roster spot alright. But Coach John and his wife Mary just had dinner and drinks at Max on Main with little Joe's mommy and daddy. Little Joe is the weakest kid on the team. The second weakest kid is Coach John's son. Someone is going to get squeezed out of the back end but it won't be one of those two. Not when Joe's daddy sprung for Shrek tickets at the Bushnell for everyone the week before. someone is not going to make the team. But for what reason? Because he's not good enough?

The same crap goes on each year with these LL All-Star teams. My goodness it's so obviously blatant at times. Do the best 12 kids make these teams? "Oh we chose Tommy for the chemistry that he has with the rest of the infield that's been together since they were 9."

Yeah I know many leagues have steps in place to avoid such situations. But c'mon - the cream can rise but can it stay afloat long enough to get skimmed off the top?

And again with the good players playing against each other. We think they come out better at the end. But do they really? And at what cost to the system as a whole? It's too random of a system.

The tone of this article is pathetic. It screams of negative experiences in youth sports and I blame the parents for not being pro-active in changing things up if, what you all claim to have witnessed, is true. Rather than whining and moaning, a much better experience would have been had if the wrongs were righted. Never before had we the experiences of those who complained via this article.

grotuva11, you live a charmed life!

I have no issues with traveling to other towns. Your son's teams shouldn't have to take constant beatings like that.

That is so much of the issue as well. Now we are back to the first square that so many parents are screaming about - mismatches. It's because SOME parents want to build a super team and leave the rest as sacrificial lambs when they have to play someone else's super team.

And just seeing the words that your son didn't start playing until 2nd grade... Does that mean the leaders of the super team look at him and the other "late bloomers" as missing the boat for the A-team?

Please just do me a favor and read Bob Bigelow's book. He is so much better than I am at explaining the effects that the entire elite/select team system has on us all.

Thanks for your comments Melanie.

I'll have to check out that book.

I actually had a mom tell me that it was a bad idea to let my son start playing at second grade because all these other kids have been playing since pre K. There's one of "those" parents. I'm glad I didn't listen to her because my son is loving soccer even though they aren't winning.

The other problem I have during indoor season is that we are only allowed a certain amount of players. So where my son's team has maybe up to three subs, these other towns are subbing their entire team about every ten minutes. Our boys just get exhausted and have no break. So they end up shutting out our team.

We actually played against another town in session 1 and they were beating us probably like 8 to nothing. Their coach actually told them they weren't allowed to score from here on out unless they used their heads. Talk about an outrage! I think it's a big slap in the face for our kids.

The book makes you realize that in the long run a child does not benefit from being on an Select team. I believe the number is 75% of them that won't play in HS. Check out the link in the article for the NAYS. The whole theory here is that by the age of 11 most of the better kids get filtered to Select teams while leaving the others behind. Many of those left behind will quit or play another sport. (Please don’t give me the dumb rhetoric regarding it making them tougher for the job market, blah, blah, and blah!) No big deal so far right? Except statistics show that many of those 11 year old “studs of the month” will not be your 14 year old studs. Hopefully we don’t lose a good chunk of the future studs because they became discouraged, distracted (as pre-teens often do), victims of poor coaching, or to other sports and activities.

I believe the elite/select teams take away from the entire system as a whole by robbing it of the best players (at that particular age) and lowering the level of competition for those left behind (many of which will or would have surpassed those "studs of the month").

Knock the age down to the 8 and 9 year olds now. We are channeling the studs into the premier programs and taking them out of the pool that they will most likely return to down the road IF they continue to play. On the other end is the 9 year old future super stud now playing in a league stripped of the best players. It makes it harder for them to improve without playing against the removed “superstars”. (And please – again – I don’t care to hear how not making the Select team will make them work harder next time. You may not even recognize that same kid next year and he very well could be blowing away the others due to nothing more than natural causes. And the coach’s kid who was on the Select team last hasn’t gotten better at all. In fact he along with three others shouldn’t be on the team the following year – but they will because Dad is the coach and his buddies kids are like his own sons. Such a shame because now there are other kids that deserve the spot but won’t get it. HOW CAN YOU TELL ME THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN ALL OF THE TIME?)

Those kids should all be in the same pool! Distribute the studs of the month evenly among the teams and let the entire group benefit. We are segregating and dividing at too early of an age and it takes a toll on the entire program.

I don't understand why it's so hard for some to understand. I think it's a selfish attitude quite frankly. I know I'll take flack for that by being told it's selfish not letting a talented 9 year old play on a select team. But again - statistics and numbers don't lie. Are there exceptions to the rule? Without a doubt. But is it worth alienating the kids that will grow to be some of the real studs of the future (or not if they are told they are not good enough for the Select team and give the sport up)? Is it really fair to do this at such a young age? I’m not sure how you cannot agree with some of this logic.